Thank you for speaking on this. I've been so hung up on that clip, and how he so readily dismisses the Sermon on the Mount by talking about his desire for several other women--his irreverence in response to his wife's protest to him speaking like that about other women. And if that's what he is comfortable posting? I hurt for her.
I actually found you and your work because of that NYT article. I tracked down all of your content that I could find, read The Making of Biblical Womanhood in 2 days, and then re-read it. Thank you for speaking on these issues. It gives direction and wisdom on things that feel extremely turbulent and disconcerting. I felt completely lost and confused around the things I have experienced in my church, marriage, and faith journey. The context that you bring to these conversations is invaluable and grounding.
Yes, thank you for transcribing the conversation. I can't even bring myself to listen to the likes of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill without spiralling into despair for the state of Christianity, never mind some business leader/pastor talk about things he doesn't understand with mock authority on his own podcast.
I've been thinking and writing about objectification recently, how every object is necessarily invented along with its purpose. I think to some degree we were raised to believe that God created Adam but invented Eve, "I will make a helper suitable..." So we end up discussing women like we discuss Artificial Intelligence. Women are seen to be useful when they stick to what they were invented to do, but when they operate outside of their invented purpose, they do the work of a man, but in a way that we have trained our brains to notice a woman's touch and equate it to being artificial and lesser and shut off our brains to whatever they have to say.
So, for these purposes, we think of women as having an invented purpose, and if invented, then owned by the inventor, who, if we're honest, we view as a man, and what one man owns, he can give to another. How can an invention own itself but by denying its inventor? And with that, we are back to Martin Buber, who will tell us that we are operating in I-It and denying God in them.
As with everything you write, it's done with compassion and a desire to see positive change. The data (specific instance) is disturbing as always and carries a fresh disturbance throughout the church. Thank you for speaking out.
Your book The Making of Biblical Womanhood should be required reading for all evangelicals. You, along with other women, are calling out the toxic culture of evangelicalism. Thank you for this; it takes an extraordinary amount of courage for women to stand up to oppression by men done in the name of God.
It seems to me to be time for another reformation within the Church. I grew up as a MK and PK in evangelical Christianity. I did not rebel but rather embraced it completely. I was (still am) a loving father of four daughters. I have a strong and loving relationship with three of my adult daughters, and am actively repairing my relationship with one of my estranged daughters.
About 20 years ago I began to seriously question two foundational beliefs: ECT and biblical inerrancy.
My research into what Jesus taught about hell eventually led to finding That All Shall Be Saved by David Bentley Hart. I was finally able to reconcile my belief in a loving God and my faith in Jesus with what I was seeing in the history of the Church, most especially in the version of reformed Christianity that I had been a part of for fifty years.
Questioning my lifelong belief in the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible led to finding the writings of Rachel Held Evans, Pete Enns, NT Wright, and others. How pleasantly surprised I was to find that Christians, for centuries, have wrestled with these issues. I was simply unaware of the traditions of those who pushed back against the dominant narratives of the western Church. Or to the extent I was aware of them I only interpreted them through the writings of those I felt safe to agree with (Augustine, Calvin, Hodge, Machen, Berkhof, Sproul, et al.)
After years of wrestling with these issues, the 2016 election arrived and revealed that my community had an allegiance to systems and people that didn’t align with what I believed. I finally was able to step back and consider Jesus’ words: “A bad tree cannot bear good fruit.”
The fruit of evangelicalism, as best as I can tell, is significantly bad. As a group evangelicals have doubled down on beliefs and support of leaders that bear no resemblance to how Jesus taught and lived. It took me almost twenty years before I was willing to reevaluate my beliefs, to look at myself and the effects of my beliefs in my life and in the lives of those I loved before I made the hard decision to leave.
Ten years ago I stepped completely away from the evangelical world that had been my home for over fifty years. This was the beginning of healing in my relationship with my children and with others. The level of peace I’m experiencing now truly passes understanding.
While I continue to believe that the Church can be reformed to something that looks like what Jesus began, as a universalist I have no home in American Christianity. And I think that if there is no reformation in the Church (evangelical and otherwise) then Christianity will continue to rot from the inside and justifiably slide into irrelevance. I make a distinction between Christianity and followers of Jesus, of course. This decline may take many more generations, but the kindness of God will make it happen.
You are doing good work. It’s because of thinkers and writers like you that I hold out slim hope for the Church. I wish you strength and success in your endeavors.
Preach it Beth. I think overall you've deployed your social presence and influence very well. As someone who wants to stay grounded in a local church and lead small groups you're one of my "influencers". Or, at least I think you're an influencer, lol. But it's can be a hard balance to strike when each day brings something worth getting upset over.
This Pokluda thing IS worth making a stand on, precisely (I think) because he's one of those popular pastor dudes aiming at young folks and trying to "be real". Little doses of this kind of poison can escape detection when everyone's looking at Naselli, Rigney and that bunch.
Actually I think my daughter might have once shared a Pokluda quote on her insta. And how would younger folks like her know if they didn't have people like Sheila and you poring through this stuff that looks like harmless pabulum to the less than discerning eye?
Hope you all didn't get too much ice in TX. I slid all the way to the hospital and back, and am now just hoping our tree limbs and power lines hold up!
He is indeed extremely charismatic with growing influence. I worry so much. We are cold and icy, but everything is canceled here so not much reason to get out.
Thank you for this (and for mentioning For the Love of Women). I'm sure this costs you. I appreciate your courage and clarity. Have any men been speaking out about this? I mean there are LOTS of churches in Waco. Any pastors calling him on it?
I was a Southern Baptist back in the early '70's for about 2 years from 1970-1974, obviously not all in two years. I left for many reasons, none of them about a woman's role in church. After dipping into almost every denomination in my Bible belt town, I joined the Episcopal Church. I'm not a "rabid" feminist. I'm not a rabid anything except anti-maga. Think hard ladies. By staying in an abusive relationship, even a form of man made religion, you are saying "it's ok". Abusers are very good at "tickling our ears." "Religion" by any name, has always been about control. "Religion", " belief", and "faith" are all very different.
There is a local pastor near me (without any college degree at all!) who is making waves for his nationalist sermons. He is even hosting a conference including guests like Doug Wilson 🫣😭 I don’t know how to speak up and it feels so discouraging to see how many people (and young people!) are listening to him.
Thank you for this conversation. I’m curious if people are actually interested in truth or if they are more comfortable with the way their current answers make them feel. I walked away from a Christian Nationalist upbringing because brave women had braver conversations with me in secret. It never came from the pulpit. Lifesaving. Keep up your good work.
Thank you for such a helpful article. I can’t imagine what it must be like to be a female member of his church that now has to wonder “does my senior pastor think about having sex with me?” It’s so twisted.
The problem of churches accepting a charasmatic preacher instead of a well educated theologically sound Pastor and teacher is epidemic in the mega evangelical church and is characteristic of the anti woman mindset.
You nailed it as you said that you were afraid to speak up because you didn’t want it to impact your family (again). I remember in your book The Making of Biblical Womanhood how that was such a wrestle for you but you knew you had to stand in truth.
Imagine if that pastor had actually wrestled with “how will this impact my wife?” I think about how often women silence their voices because of the greater impact (both positive and negative) that will come to those around them.
We have an internal battle and tend to move towards silence as the “right” decision. I don’t often hear this same internal fight with the men I work with in couples therapy. They tend to realize after the fact that “maybe” what they said or did wasn’t the best action. And I work with bicultural couples in Europe. This conditioning crosses cultures, ethnicities, and religions. It shares a common word amongst them all: patriarchy.
The conditioning we’ve received is sometimes too deep for us to see in plain sight. Keep speaking out Beth! You are the lighthouse for the rest of us to stand up too!
Thank you for speaking. It inspires me to speak up in my church and my context, and use the influence I have, however small, to open eyes and reveal wrongs.
Thank you for speaking on this. I've been so hung up on that clip, and how he so readily dismisses the Sermon on the Mount by talking about his desire for several other women--his irreverence in response to his wife's protest to him speaking like that about other women. And if that's what he is comfortable posting? I hurt for her.
It is heartbreaking how callous it is toward women.
I actually found you and your work because of that NYT article. I tracked down all of your content that I could find, read The Making of Biblical Womanhood in 2 days, and then re-read it. Thank you for speaking on these issues. It gives direction and wisdom on things that feel extremely turbulent and disconcerting. I felt completely lost and confused around the things I have experienced in my church, marriage, and faith journey. The context that you bring to these conversations is invaluable and grounding.
Oh, this is amazing! Thank you for sharing! I am so glad to have helped.
You have both courage and hope—something we all need these days. Thank you, Beth!
oh, thanks Konnie! I wish we could have come up this winter!
Yes, thank you for transcribing the conversation. I can't even bring myself to listen to the likes of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill without spiralling into despair for the state of Christianity, never mind some business leader/pastor talk about things he doesn't understand with mock authority on his own podcast.
I've been thinking and writing about objectification recently, how every object is necessarily invented along with its purpose. I think to some degree we were raised to believe that God created Adam but invented Eve, "I will make a helper suitable..." So we end up discussing women like we discuss Artificial Intelligence. Women are seen to be useful when they stick to what they were invented to do, but when they operate outside of their invented purpose, they do the work of a man, but in a way that we have trained our brains to notice a woman's touch and equate it to being artificial and lesser and shut off our brains to whatever they have to say.
So, for these purposes, we think of women as having an invented purpose, and if invented, then owned by the inventor, who, if we're honest, we view as a man, and what one man owns, he can give to another. How can an invention own itself but by denying its inventor? And with that, we are back to Martin Buber, who will tell us that we are operating in I-It and denying God in them.
As with everything you write, it's done with compassion and a desire to see positive change. The data (specific instance) is disturbing as always and carries a fresh disturbance throughout the church. Thank you for speaking out.
Thank you, too. I appreciate your work also.
Your book The Making of Biblical Womanhood should be required reading for all evangelicals. You, along with other women, are calling out the toxic culture of evangelicalism. Thank you for this; it takes an extraordinary amount of courage for women to stand up to oppression by men done in the name of God.
It seems to me to be time for another reformation within the Church. I grew up as a MK and PK in evangelical Christianity. I did not rebel but rather embraced it completely. I was (still am) a loving father of four daughters. I have a strong and loving relationship with three of my adult daughters, and am actively repairing my relationship with one of my estranged daughters.
About 20 years ago I began to seriously question two foundational beliefs: ECT and biblical inerrancy.
My research into what Jesus taught about hell eventually led to finding That All Shall Be Saved by David Bentley Hart. I was finally able to reconcile my belief in a loving God and my faith in Jesus with what I was seeing in the history of the Church, most especially in the version of reformed Christianity that I had been a part of for fifty years.
Questioning my lifelong belief in the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible led to finding the writings of Rachel Held Evans, Pete Enns, NT Wright, and others. How pleasantly surprised I was to find that Christians, for centuries, have wrestled with these issues. I was simply unaware of the traditions of those who pushed back against the dominant narratives of the western Church. Or to the extent I was aware of them I only interpreted them through the writings of those I felt safe to agree with (Augustine, Calvin, Hodge, Machen, Berkhof, Sproul, et al.)
After years of wrestling with these issues, the 2016 election arrived and revealed that my community had an allegiance to systems and people that didn’t align with what I believed. I finally was able to step back and consider Jesus’ words: “A bad tree cannot bear good fruit.”
The fruit of evangelicalism, as best as I can tell, is significantly bad. As a group evangelicals have doubled down on beliefs and support of leaders that bear no resemblance to how Jesus taught and lived. It took me almost twenty years before I was willing to reevaluate my beliefs, to look at myself and the effects of my beliefs in my life and in the lives of those I loved before I made the hard decision to leave.
Ten years ago I stepped completely away from the evangelical world that had been my home for over fifty years. This was the beginning of healing in my relationship with my children and with others. The level of peace I’m experiencing now truly passes understanding.
While I continue to believe that the Church can be reformed to something that looks like what Jesus began, as a universalist I have no home in American Christianity. And I think that if there is no reformation in the Church (evangelical and otherwise) then Christianity will continue to rot from the inside and justifiably slide into irrelevance. I make a distinction between Christianity and followers of Jesus, of course. This decline may take many more generations, but the kindness of God will make it happen.
You are doing good work. It’s because of thinkers and writers like you that I hold out slim hope for the Church. I wish you strength and success in your endeavors.
Thank you!
Preach it Beth. I think overall you've deployed your social presence and influence very well. As someone who wants to stay grounded in a local church and lead small groups you're one of my "influencers". Or, at least I think you're an influencer, lol. But it's can be a hard balance to strike when each day brings something worth getting upset over.
This Pokluda thing IS worth making a stand on, precisely (I think) because he's one of those popular pastor dudes aiming at young folks and trying to "be real". Little doses of this kind of poison can escape detection when everyone's looking at Naselli, Rigney and that bunch.
Actually I think my daughter might have once shared a Pokluda quote on her insta. And how would younger folks like her know if they didn't have people like Sheila and you poring through this stuff that looks like harmless pabulum to the less than discerning eye?
Hope you all didn't get too much ice in TX. I slid all the way to the hospital and back, and am now just hoping our tree limbs and power lines hold up!
He is indeed extremely charismatic with growing influence. I worry so much. We are cold and icy, but everything is canceled here so not much reason to get out.
Thank you for this (and for mentioning For the Love of Women). I'm sure this costs you. I appreciate your courage and clarity. Have any men been speaking out about this? I mean there are LOTS of churches in Waco. Any pastors calling him on it?
Not really.
I want a "no like" button.
I was a Southern Baptist back in the early '70's for about 2 years from 1970-1974, obviously not all in two years. I left for many reasons, none of them about a woman's role in church. After dipping into almost every denomination in my Bible belt town, I joined the Episcopal Church. I'm not a "rabid" feminist. I'm not a rabid anything except anti-maga. Think hard ladies. By staying in an abusive relationship, even a form of man made religion, you are saying "it's ok". Abusers are very good at "tickling our ears." "Religion" by any name, has always been about control. "Religion", " belief", and "faith" are all very different.
There is a local pastor near me (without any college degree at all!) who is making waves for his nationalist sermons. He is even hosting a conference including guests like Doug Wilson 🫣😭 I don’t know how to speak up and it feels so discouraging to see how many people (and young people!) are listening to him.
It is such an uphill battle. I have given up at times too. But all we can do is speak truth. Some people are listening.
Thank you for this conversation. I’m curious if people are actually interested in truth or if they are more comfortable with the way their current answers make them feel. I walked away from a Christian Nationalist upbringing because brave women had braver conversations with me in secret. It never came from the pulpit. Lifesaving. Keep up your good work.
Some people are listening, which gives me hope.
Thank you for such a helpful article. I can’t imagine what it must be like to be a female member of his church that now has to wonder “does my senior pastor think about having sex with me?” It’s so twisted.
Exactly.
The problem of churches accepting a charasmatic preacher instead of a well educated theologically sound Pastor and teacher is epidemic in the mega evangelical church and is characteristic of the anti woman mindset.
You nailed it as you said that you were afraid to speak up because you didn’t want it to impact your family (again). I remember in your book The Making of Biblical Womanhood how that was such a wrestle for you but you knew you had to stand in truth.
Imagine if that pastor had actually wrestled with “how will this impact my wife?” I think about how often women silence their voices because of the greater impact (both positive and negative) that will come to those around them.
We have an internal battle and tend to move towards silence as the “right” decision. I don’t often hear this same internal fight with the men I work with in couples therapy. They tend to realize after the fact that “maybe” what they said or did wasn’t the best action. And I work with bicultural couples in Europe. This conditioning crosses cultures, ethnicities, and religions. It shares a common word amongst them all: patriarchy.
The conditioning we’ve received is sometimes too deep for us to see in plain sight. Keep speaking out Beth! You are the lighthouse for the rest of us to stand up too!
Thank you and praying for you sister that Good would use your courage
Thank you!
Thank you Beth for speaking up!!!
Thank you for speaking. It inspires me to speak up in my church and my context, and use the influence I have, however small, to open eyes and reveal wrongs.
Oh, I’m so glad! It will take all of us.