Barbara, I appreciate the article. Actually, as a victim of relationship abuse myself, I am very sensitive to the issue. The connection between complementarian theology and abuse is a big part of Making Biblical Womanhood.
Thanks Beth. Sorry to hear you are a victim of relationship abuse yourself. So am I.
I know that Complementarianism is like steroids for abusive men. No offence, but don’t need to read books like yours to be convinced of that.
I’m my observation and experience (having been writing and advocating for Christian domestic abuse survivors for over two decades) I don’t think egalitarianism has been much better at addressing domestic abuse. I see many egals arguing that women can be leaders in churches, but I don’t see many egals who deeply understand and advocate for domestic abuse victims. This disappoints me greatly.
I’ve been abused by females and by males. I’ve been disrespected and ignored and patronised by egal leaders. I’ve seen egal churches heinously mistreat women who are being abused by their husbands or ex-husbands. I’ve seen many egals who just don’t want to face the horrendous facts about the epidemic of domestic abuse.
I get the impression that many egals only talk about domestic abuse when they think that doing so will enhance their image or bring them more donors or followers.
Barbara, If you didn’t know that about me I suspect you haven’t read my book. I think you would find it helpful as it isn’t actually about women in leadership; it is about Christian patriarchy.
And likewise, since you told me that there is a connection between complementarian theology and abuse, I suspect that you haven’t read my work. If you had, you would have known that I am already very aware of that connection.
I wasn’t telling you as if you didn’t know. I was letting you know I knew. I’m glad you have been fighting this for a long time. You aren’t alone. Thanks for commenting.
Thank you for this, Beth, and for centering women. While we want women pastors, I don’t believe the one who abused me and the man who hired him as his replacement and covered up my abuse and that of many others are the ones to speak nor lead on this. Wolves in shepherd’s clothing devouring women should not be allowed to use women to gain more power by “fighting for women.” Where are the women? Let the women speak instead. Thank you for believing me, Beth! “While I agree with Rick Warren that women should be free to minister however God has called them and that the disfellowshipping of churches by the SBC isn’t very Baptist, I worry that the public fight for the autonomy of local churches to ordain women will do little to alleviate the everyday misogyny faced by SBC women called to ministry.”
“unless we fight just as hard to uproot toxic church cultures that privilege the male perspective, center authoritarian structures, and silence the voices of women.”
In a Baptist setting, how much of this goes on because it is tolerated and perhaps even celebrated by the congregation? I interacted with one Saddleback congregant who is aware of all the issues with Andy Wood and still praises the Warrens and who is staying and sits under the leadership and teaching of Wood.
I personally struggle with Christians that tolerate abuse in this way yet it seems to be the norm. Why?
The complicity is everywhere. I had many from Echo.church believe me, observe my abuse and still choose to stay. BIRG- basking in the reflective glory of a celebrity pastor and a megachurch is part of what keeps the flywheel of abuse going, unfortunately.
I remember sitting next to female students at Southern Seminary in the late 70's studying for the same Masters of Divinity degree I was. I thought it was a sin then that the SBC would take their money KNOWING THEY COULD NEVER BE ORDAINED! My mind hasn't changed. As a child and youth I remember female missionaries who would come back on furlough. They could only get up in the Pulpit to "tell their story" or "give their testimony, " but they weren't allowed to "preach." Even though they were the sole individual in some remote village who had brought the Gospel to an entire people group! Ridiculous! It's way past time for a change!
David, I was one of those missionaries for 20 years with IMB. I “spoke” and “shared” in many pulpits with 3 points and a scripture- including SBC state conventions, large churches and small churches. The discrimination is ungodly.
“ we have to intentionally create spaces that support female pastors—including helping male pastors understand that ordaining a woman doesn’t magically erase the sexist legacy of her work environment.“ Beth so point on I was ordained in March but the sexist environment has not disappeared. Even among women in the church (older-women). I’ve move to a Presbyterian church and it’s no different from SBC life I once lived. I also have a sister working in the Episcopal church no white male vicars are the same as white male baptist…
May God, who like a mother, gathers her chicks under her wings, gather ALL who minister under the wings of mutual love and respect for service.
I so appreciate this being said out loud. Rick Warren is championing women as pastors, that’s really important, and because of his very great pull, perhaps he can be an agent for change in the SBC (though I am neutral about that, not being a Baptist).
But even a towering hero like Rick Warren will not be enough to appreciably change the real-life experiences of women in ministry, particularly in leadership positions. There must be intentional change made by each local church body to actively create safe environments where ministers can flourish—women, non-majority language and culture groups, “Greek and Jew, male and female, slave and free.”
Which means rolling up the sleeves and getting honest about resentments, prejudices, distrusts, past hurts, and all the rest. It is lasting kingdom work, but it -is- work.
Great post. There needs to be a complete overhaul of the SBC culture. Throwing a bone at it by making a resolution to “tolerate” or even go as far as to accept the ordination of women looks good on paper and in theory to John and Jane Q Public, but until you get rid of the root of the bad, prickly weed, the weed will just return again. Thanks for keeping the conversation stretching everyone to a point of uncomfortableness and maybe action that makes a difference.
Beth, I echo your hopes that the SBC will be better and do better with regard to women in ministry roles, especially in the hopes that they [we] will follow through. I was raised a PK in south Mississippi fundamentalist Baptist churches and married an SBC girl, a deacon's daughter. We know the tribe well. As to Rick Warren's championing efforts, I applaud Rick and am grateful for his work. Like you, I have never personally corresponded with Rick, and only met him one time with a handshake at a Saddleback conference "after service fellowship". He seemed then to be the real deal, and he has never given me any reason to think differently. As to Andy Wood's succession as Lead Pastor -- I share your same concerns. Andy seems to have the platform gift(s); but, having served alongside abusive pastors myself, I am intently watching and listening for the subtle cues, which we all have seen and known as survivors of such abuse. I pray for Andy and for Saddleback that they may be the BEST version of themselves as they move forward. I am grateful for Rick and Kay, and I pray that the SBC listens to one of their brightest and best voices of this era -- in my humble opinion. Blessings!
I think you have been asleep at the wheel Beth. Maybe you’ve been so focused on the ‘women in ministry’ question that you haven’t known how to discern the other signs of misogyny.
Domestic abuse victims are the canary in the coal mine... yet their voices and their plight had been not given enough attention because so many activists and feminist theologians are focused on the issue of women in ministry.
It's been a disgrace that has caused the Holy Spirit to weep. I experienced it first growing up in a Conservative Baptist Church. Saw it in the SBC. I've been an American Baptist for 48 years and while they have come a long way, the discrimination still finds itself in pockets across the country.
Barbara, I appreciate the article. Actually, as a victim of relationship abuse myself, I am very sensitive to the issue. The connection between complementarian theology and abuse is a big part of Making Biblical Womanhood.
Thanks Beth. Sorry to hear you are a victim of relationship abuse yourself. So am I.
I know that Complementarianism is like steroids for abusive men. No offence, but don’t need to read books like yours to be convinced of that.
I’m my observation and experience (having been writing and advocating for Christian domestic abuse survivors for over two decades) I don’t think egalitarianism has been much better at addressing domestic abuse. I see many egals arguing that women can be leaders in churches, but I don’t see many egals who deeply understand and advocate for domestic abuse victims. This disappoints me greatly.
I’ve been abused by females and by males. I’ve been disrespected and ignored and patronised by egal leaders. I’ve seen egal churches heinously mistreat women who are being abused by their husbands or ex-husbands. I’ve seen many egals who just don’t want to face the horrendous facts about the epidemic of domestic abuse.
I get the impression that many egals only talk about domestic abuse when they think that doing so will enhance their image or bring them more donors or followers.
End of lament.
Barbara, If you didn’t know that about me I suspect you haven’t read my book. I think you would find it helpful as it isn’t actually about women in leadership; it is about Christian patriarchy.
Yes I haven’t read your book.
And likewise, since you told me that there is a connection between complementarian theology and abuse, I suspect that you haven’t read my work. If you had, you would have known that I am already very aware of that connection.
I wasn’t telling you as if you didn’t know. I was letting you know I knew. I’m glad you have been fighting this for a long time. You aren’t alone. Thanks for commenting.
Thank you for this, Beth, and for centering women. While we want women pastors, I don’t believe the one who abused me and the man who hired him as his replacement and covered up my abuse and that of many others are the ones to speak nor lead on this. Wolves in shepherd’s clothing devouring women should not be allowed to use women to gain more power by “fighting for women.” Where are the women? Let the women speak instead. Thank you for believing me, Beth! “While I agree with Rick Warren that women should be free to minister however God has called them and that the disfellowshipping of churches by the SBC isn’t very Baptist, I worry that the public fight for the autonomy of local churches to ordain women will do little to alleviate the everyday misogyny faced by SBC women called to ministry.”
“unless we fight just as hard to uproot toxic church cultures that privilege the male perspective, center authoritarian structures, and silence the voices of women.”
In a Baptist setting, how much of this goes on because it is tolerated and perhaps even celebrated by the congregation? I interacted with one Saddleback congregant who is aware of all the issues with Andy Wood and still praises the Warrens and who is staying and sits under the leadership and teaching of Wood.
I personally struggle with Christians that tolerate abuse in this way yet it seems to be the norm. Why?
The complicity is everywhere. I had many from Echo.church believe me, observe my abuse and still choose to stay. BIRG- basking in the reflective glory of a celebrity pastor and a megachurch is part of what keeps the flywheel of abuse going, unfortunately.
I remember sitting next to female students at Southern Seminary in the late 70's studying for the same Masters of Divinity degree I was. I thought it was a sin then that the SBC would take their money KNOWING THEY COULD NEVER BE ORDAINED! My mind hasn't changed. As a child and youth I remember female missionaries who would come back on furlough. They could only get up in the Pulpit to "tell their story" or "give their testimony, " but they weren't allowed to "preach." Even though they were the sole individual in some remote village who had brought the Gospel to an entire people group! Ridiculous! It's way past time for a change!
David, I was one of those missionaries for 20 years with IMB. I “spoke” and “shared” in many pulpits with 3 points and a scripture- including SBC state conventions, large churches and small churches. The discrimination is ungodly.
“ we have to intentionally create spaces that support female pastors—including helping male pastors understand that ordaining a woman doesn’t magically erase the sexist legacy of her work environment.“ Beth so point on I was ordained in March but the sexist environment has not disappeared. Even among women in the church (older-women). I’ve move to a Presbyterian church and it’s no different from SBC life I once lived. I also have a sister working in the Episcopal church no white male vicars are the same as white male baptist…
May God, who like a mother, gathers her chicks under her wings, gather ALL who minister under the wings of mutual love and respect for service.
Praying God as mother hen gathers us all. We need to hear her warm heartbeat, and God’s heart beats for justice.
I so appreciate this being said out loud. Rick Warren is championing women as pastors, that’s really important, and because of his very great pull, perhaps he can be an agent for change in the SBC (though I am neutral about that, not being a Baptist).
But even a towering hero like Rick Warren will not be enough to appreciably change the real-life experiences of women in ministry, particularly in leadership positions. There must be intentional change made by each local church body to actively create safe environments where ministers can flourish—women, non-majority language and culture groups, “Greek and Jew, male and female, slave and free.”
Which means rolling up the sleeves and getting honest about resentments, prejudices, distrusts, past hurts, and all the rest. It is lasting kingdom work, but it -is- work.
Pretty sure the Methodist environment is the same for female pastors...
Great post. There needs to be a complete overhaul of the SBC culture. Throwing a bone at it by making a resolution to “tolerate” or even go as far as to accept the ordination of women looks good on paper and in theory to John and Jane Q Public, but until you get rid of the root of the bad, prickly weed, the weed will just return again. Thanks for keeping the conversation stretching everyone to a point of uncomfortableness and maybe action that makes a difference.
Thanks for this cautionary tale, Beth and for the rest of your scholarly and activist work. Keep on trucking' !
MaryS. Van Leeuwen (writing from Ottawa Canada)
Beth, I echo your hopes that the SBC will be better and do better with regard to women in ministry roles, especially in the hopes that they [we] will follow through. I was raised a PK in south Mississippi fundamentalist Baptist churches and married an SBC girl, a deacon's daughter. We know the tribe well. As to Rick Warren's championing efforts, I applaud Rick and am grateful for his work. Like you, I have never personally corresponded with Rick, and only met him one time with a handshake at a Saddleback conference "after service fellowship". He seemed then to be the real deal, and he has never given me any reason to think differently. As to Andy Wood's succession as Lead Pastor -- I share your same concerns. Andy seems to have the platform gift(s); but, having served alongside abusive pastors myself, I am intently watching and listening for the subtle cues, which we all have seen and known as survivors of such abuse. I pray for Andy and for Saddleback that they may be the BEST version of themselves as they move forward. I am grateful for Rick and Kay, and I pray that the SBC listens to one of their brightest and best voices of this era -- in my humble opinion. Blessings!
Beth, it was obvious way back in 2009 that Saddleback was misogynist and that Rick Warren was condoning domestic violence. Here’s the proof:
http://kathrynjoyce.com/does-rick-warrens-church-condone-domestic-violence/
I think you have been asleep at the wheel Beth. Maybe you’ve been so focused on the ‘women in ministry’ question that you haven’t known how to discern the other signs of misogyny.
Domestic abuse victims are the canary in the coal mine... yet their voices and their plight had been not given enough attention because so many activists and feminist theologians are focused on the issue of women in ministry.
It's been a disgrace that has caused the Holy Spirit to weep. I experienced it first growing up in a Conservative Baptist Church. Saw it in the SBC. I've been an American Baptist for 48 years and while they have come a long way, the discrimination still finds itself in pockets across the country.